The issue: Moral decline not that bad in the Netherlands
Interview by Gert van der Ende , photography by Ronald van den Heerik
Complaining about the disappearance of our culture, yet not interested in where we come from. Talking tough abroad, but acting like a spoilt child believing that rules only apply to others. The Netherlands has degenerated into a country without standards, according to Poet Laureate Ramsey Nasr in the Dutch NRC newspaper. Philosopher Jos de Mul reflects on a number of Nasr’s audacious opinions. |
‘The Netherlands is at risk of becoming a country without standards,’ says Nasr.
“I would question whether the situation really is that deplorable; I think this is a slightly hysterical discourse. I don’t believe things are that bad; in a number of aspects this is an exaggerated representation of affairs. In the first place because the Netherlands marched on fairly normally over the past ten years. What I notice is the discrepancy between everyday reality and public discussion about it. In the media all sorts of non-standard behaviour is magnified hugely and immediately regarded as an example of cultural decline. To offer an example: gratuitous violence. If you read historical studies of everyday life, you will see for example that fights often broke out at fairs in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and that people were often fatally stabbed. This type of behaviour has always been part of society. But when that happens now, the newspapers are full of it and the cameras are on hand immediately. I’ve worked abroad regularly over the past decade, among other places in China and the US; people there now have the impression that there’s a permanent civil war going on here. Naturally there was tension in the country following the murders of Fortuyn and Van Gogh, but what was particularly noticeable was how quickly things returned to normal. So I think it’s not really that bad in terms of moral decline. In the second instance you might say, if you consider the discourse in the media, that it’s more a case of the exact opposite of a lack of standards which is underway: there is in fact an enormous revival of standards and values, partly thanks to former Prime Minister Balkenende. Certainly there are all sorts of problems in our society related to standards and values, but this is generally coupled to a powerful call for their stronger enforcement. Consider paedophilia for instance: this was regarded somewhat liberally in the 1960s; not that it was applauded, but it was considered to be one of the many expressions of human sexuality. Now there’s an almost witch-hunt-like scene.”
You say that the discourse is hysterical. So in daily life things are really not that bad? “Indeed. Just consider how many Dutch people do voluntary or social work. Look at the crime statistics; crime is dropping in almost all categories. In their everyday lives, according to all the research, the Dutch continue to be the happiest people in the world in this respect. The problem is rather that a prescriptive erosion has occurred in politics, and that the neoliberal, economic norm has become overpowering. But in the world of everyday life standards and values are still doing just fine in many respects.”
According to Nasr, it’s only in a country without standards that a TV programme can be broadcast in which people perform cannibalism.
“Hmm, I don’t think that’s so much a question of moral decline, as rather simply being tasteless. This tastelessness arises from the fact that viewing figures make up the only criterion. This has everything to do with the commercialisation of the media, which in turn relates to the neoliberal ideology which in its broadest form has gained a huge amount of ground in the Netherlands. People always have to go that one step further to raise the viewing figures, and an instance of cannibalism scores, apparently. Of course that’s also down to a certain shift in, not so much standards, but a certain value model. Because of neoliberal ideology, everything is assessed purely on market value. The French writer Michel Houellebecq describes meticulously in his novels how everything is for sale in the neoliberal society. His novels engender a lot of resistance, but that’s mainly because they hold up a particularly confrontational mirror to us. In France and Belgium there is generally more resistance to the neoliberal model; the Netherlands has immersed itself significantly in it, where the coalition cabinet of liberals and socialists was a significant factor. Because then Prime Minister Kok shook his ideological feathers, a major collaboration was possible between the PvdA, VVD and D66. But that did mean a type of uniformity in terms of ideology. People like Pim Fortuyn and Geert Wilders gave established politicians the opportunity to maintain that there is after all something of a choice. The philosopher Žižek had already delivered a stimulating lecture on this in Rotterdam in 2002, under the motto ‘Why we all love to hate Haider.’”
The Dutch apparently don’t know who they are. They certainly claim a Dutch identity, but no-one is really interested in the national history.
“Here too I would like to put this into a little perspective. Are matters really this miserable in terms of national consciousness? Okay, the classic nationalistic consciousness – the political history of the major ‘Fatherland Heroes’ – has fragmented, but there’s enormous interest in genealogy for instance; local societies conducting historic studies are flourishing, and historic films and computer games are extremely popular. Those who are really to blame here are rather the leading political elites, who are undermining the cultural baggage through their destructive policies on culture and the arts. The problem lies with leaders who set a poor example – along the lines of ‘Oh, culture, we really don’t have to spend any money on it, you can simply go to the latest farce put on by the “Theater van de Lach”’. Culture can only continue to exist if it can pay its own way – that’s also the neoliberal regime. The intrinsic value of culture, and the duty a government may have in it, is thus repudiated enormously. Ha! On one hand arrivals need to naturalise and learn Dutch, while on the other we are frittering away our language and soon, if it’s up to the managers, we will only be able to teach in the universities in English. That’s somewhat bizarre, surely? A type of reverse provinciality reigns here; we think that everything from the other province – America – is better. They want to convert the university to an American model, which is apparently the Mecca. The truth is that it’s not in the least a Mecca; 90 per cent of the colleges in America cannot match the level of European universities. This is all about an inferiority complex which – and I’m now going to say something dangerous – stems from a lack of a specific national pride. Even though there are a lot of things we really don’t do badly. Take the so-called ‘polder model’, the economic consultation model that ensured in the 1990s that we had very few strikes and a reasonably successful economic machinery. This model was praised internationally by people like Clinton, Schröder and Blair. But from one moment to the next there was an end to being proud of ‘poldering’. Yet at the same time everyone happily continued ‘poldering’, even Wilders: not only does he tolerate, but he himself is also tolerated. So in practice we just continue with it, but at the discourse level it has become a dirty word, a synonym for cowardly compromises and a lack of leadership.”
‘We have been hijacked by an anti-democratic party which is leading us to destruction in international terms.’ Consider how members of political party the PVV conduct themselves in the European Parliament; consider the policy on Israel, the Polish website [a PVV site regarded as anti-immigrant], the European budget shortfalls saga…
“You might well say that populism damages more than you would like. Abroad I’m often asked: ‘The Netherlands used to be such a tolerant country; how come it has changed so much?’ People just don’t understand. Particularly in Europe, Wilders is a major determinant for our image. Prime Minister Rutte should really also have distanced himself from that website. But there’s also internal damage; thus it is that all sorts of symbol politics – the ban on burkas, the ban on dual nationality, you name it – lessens the motivation of the new Dutch to build up a life here.”
We have a prime minister without standards.
“Yes. For Rutte it’s only the polls which appear to be important, just as the viewing figures are for broadcasters. It’s actually crazy that Rutte says about the Polish website that he can’t respond to every wind issued by Wilders, while at the same time he distances himself from VVD senator Sybe Schaap, who warns of the dangerous aspects of populism in his book Het rancuneuze gif [literally, The Rancorous Poison]. He refuses to distance himself from Wilders on the grounds of freedom of expression, but he absolutely rejects the opinion of a senator from his own party. This is so unprincipled; the only principle which underpins such a stance is the continued existence of the cabinet and the number of votes you need for this. How you acquire them is apparently unimportant.” But people do vote for Rutte and Wilders; so the people do go along with it. “ Sure, but here too there are extremely interesting discrepancies. Surveys of those voting for the PVV do show, for example, that on average they hold far less radical views than Wilders himself. Apparently there is indeed dissatisfaction, but this does not achieve expression in behaviour without the elementary standards of civility. What I propose as the explanation for this in my book is that many of the problems are localised in the older neighbourhoods of the major cities. These are populated largely by immigrant workers and the new Dutch, and those with the least opportunity are concentrated there. These are also the worst victims of the neoliberal climate. For ‘us people’ globalisation is indeed fine: we can travel abroad often, and then the euro is enormously easy, and if you have languages then you can easily go and work somewhere else. But it is specifically these advantages which do not exist for the class on the underside. Just like the workers in the sweatshops in Asia, they’re the ones who are presented with the bill. So if Wilders addresses nationalistic sentiments and appeals against a loss of the classic Dutch society, then many of these people will vote for him through dissatisfaction with the neoliberal religion.”
Monday the 23d of April (week 17)
The issue is a section in Erasmus Magazine, the opinion and information magazine of Erasmus University Rotterdam, in which an EUR-academic responds to a current-social issue.
